Monday, March 12, 2012

391 Lasha + Freud + Marilyn Monroe + Elizabeth Taylor

Lasha + Freud + Marilyn Monroe + Elizabeth Taylor

(1) Lasha, Jews, Sex and Art
(2) Lasha's blog: she admits that she doctored the Freud quote
(3) Freud made the Plague comment to Jung, who told Lacan, who was fond of quoting it to his students
(4) Peter: I thought this post from the blog would interest you - Lasha
(5) Elizabeth Taylor's conversion to Judaism (she had three Jewish husbands)
(6) Alleged communist ties of Marilyn Monroe's psychoanalyst, Ralph Greenson
(7) Spencer Wells "A Few Men Did Most of the Mating" - cf Tribal societies
(8) FBI file links Kennedy to Monroe's death

(1) Lasha, Jews, Sex and Art

From: Denis McC <> Date: 11.10.2010 02:38 AM

I visited the Khajuraho temples in 1999 - nothing new under the sun really, apart from the renovations/restorations constantly being carved and installed there and at similarly significant sites around the world

- and good luck future esoteric duels with Madame Lash(a), go with the black knight strategy, be happy with a draw...regards, D

NB: The letter below is from an anonymous lady. ( Peter Myers knows her name)

Dear Peter, Dear God, that girl... and it is true the Germans have been turned on to these ideas somewhere as I noticed to my horror that my grandsons German grandmother spent time nappy changing nosing up his genitals I was totally enraged and now at five any excitement leads him to grab hold of his penis and wiggle about. The same woman when newly acquainted with me told me how she still sexually attracted her husband.

Yuk how foolish they all are and the whole idea has been used by America to get hold of millions in populations. Private love and sex and the beauty of human nature has been destroyed for young people, and the result inevitably is marriages wrecked everywhere and the growing predominance of perverse homo and lesbian love and that populace of weirds now dominant in large sectors of civilization which have nothing to do with sex. 1970's on these homo ideas got a start on "Power" ideas and it has been all go since then. I remember Charlie Haughey saying that he would give them their Rights and then they must shut up and we can be spared anything more to do with them. HaHa they have been clamouring for this and that ever since. Also they blame the Catholic Church for its real faults by tying them up into repression of their homosexual notions as well.

How can this perverse period in time be altered as it MUST BE and by what revelations of truth as they constantly re-iterate that Truth is their method?

I only read the intro to your mail below so far so I will read on now and see how you deal with it. I would like to know if you get mail or discussions going on this matter.

Regards,  Anonymous.

(2) Lasha's blog: she admits that she doctored the Freud quote

{The blogger named Xanadu is Lasha}

Responses to Lasha Darkmoon: Sex Plague

Der wei├če Engel says:

October 7, 2010 at 7:40 PM

Lasha: “Will someone please help by supplying a reliable source for the quote? Perhaps Admin can help…?”

The first part of your quote omits an important qualifier:

As was the case with some of Freud’s close associates described above, Freud viewed himself as a sexual reformer against this most Western of cultural practices, the suppression of sexuality. Freud wrote in 1915: “Sexual morality—as society, in its extreme form, the American, defines it—seems to me very contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life” (in Gay 1988, 143). As Gay (1988, 149) notes, it was an ideology which “was deeply subversive for his time.”

The second part of the quote is cited by KMD on page 106 of CoC.

{Peter M.: WRONG: it's p. 110. Unless there are multiple editions; my edition is dated 1998}

We have seen that a common component of Jewish intellectual activity since the Enlightenment has been to criticize gentile culture. Freud’s ideas have often been labeled as subversive. Indeed, “[Freud] was convinced that it was in the very nature of psychoanalytic doctrine to appear shocking and subversive. On board ship to America he did not feel that he was bringing that country a new panacea. With his typically dry wit he told his traveling companions, ‘We are bringing them the plague’” (Mannoni 1971, 168).

All in all, not very good scholarly form, you naughty girl. I’m very disappointed in you. ...

Xanadu says:

October 8, 2010 at 7:18 AM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ XANADU/LASHA answers:

White Angel in cracking form as usual, managing to dispense wisdom and demolish the gentler sex at the same time. Honestly, White Angel, in a matriarchal society you wouldn’t stand a chance. Your execution would be ordered almost instantaneously. I’d be the only one to urge clemency on compassionate grounds!

Joking aside, many thanks for supplying a reliable source for the second and far more important quote, “If only Americans knew, we are bringing them the plague!”

I can now refer your excellent post to my fussy correspondent.


In regard to your comment that I had omitted an “important qualifier” from my first quote—i.e., the parenthesis “as society, in its extreme form, the American, defines it”—you fail to understand that not all of us would ascribe equal importance to this “important qualifier.”

I was perfectly aware of the qualifier but omitted it deliberately. You see, I am a writer who believes above all in simplicity and clarity: broad brush strokes. Especially for captions. A caption must be pithy and to the point and not weighed down with academic paraphernalia. Such tangential trivia are for footnotes, not for captions which must capture the reader’s attention right away.

If you look at this passage in my previous article (“Goodbye, America!”, Part 2), you will see that I was aware of the qualifier. I quoted this in the text but deliberately omitted it from the picture caption that immediately followed.

The relevant passage runs:

“A key component of the culture of despair and nihilism was sex. Western mores on sexuality — mores that had the effect of building strong families and providing a safe, loving environment for children — became a prime target of these revolutionaries. Solace and salvation henceforth lay in a hedonistic creed of sexuality.

It was Freud who said, “Sexual morality — as society in its extreme form, the American, defines it — is contemptible. I advocate an incomparably freer sexual life.” (See here.) Other Jewish intellectuals — notably Herbert Marcuse and Wilhelm Reich along with a phalanx of supporters in the media and the universities — marched in lockstep behind Papa Sigmund and spread the message to the masses: salvation through sex.

(3) Freud made the Plague comment to Jung, who told Lacan, who was fond of quoting it to his students


by Thomas Elsaesser, 2007

What is this surplus energy or meaning that brings forth these figures of excessive but also inextinguishable desire? Excess there is, yet is it actually a matter of desire? ‘We bring them the plague, and they don’t even know it,’ Freud is supposed to have said to Jung the day the two of them disembarked in New York harbour in 1908. [9] Whether spoken in jest or not, some would agree, given the strange history of psychoanalysis in the US.

Where footnote 9 reads

9. Another six degrees of separation? According to Elisabeth Roudinesco, it was Carl G. Jung who related Freud’s remark to Jacques Lacan, who was fond of quoting it to his students. See Elizabeth Roudinesco (1997) Jacques Lacan, and also quoted in Octave Mannoni (1971) Freud (translation by R. Belice), p.168.

(4) Peter: I thought this post from the blog would interest you - Lasha

From: <> Date: 10 October 2010 15:04

Dan says:

October 9, 2010 at 9:00 PM

Lasha, the “plague” quote attributed to Dr. Freud (upon his arrival in New York Harbor, aboard the SS George Washington, on Sunday, August 29, 1909) itself first arrived in print (albeit in French) in 1956, as far as I have yet discovered, in a Jacques Lacan article in L’Evolution Psychiatrique (Volume 16, Number 2, pp. 225-252). Ten years later, it became a chapter in a Lacan collection entitled “Ecrits”– which has subsequently been published in English (including a 2006 translation by Bruce Fink that is subtitled “The First Complete Edition in English”). In English, the article-chapter is entitled “The Freudian Thing, or The Meaning of the Return to Freud in Psychoanalysis” (per Fink). Its subtitle states that it is an expanded version of a lecture given at the Vienna Neuropsychiatric Clinic on November 7, 1955.

Lacan’s alleged source for the quote was Freud’s own “apostle to the gentiles,” so as to speak, Dr. Carl Jung, who was traveling with Freud on his sole trip to America. According to “The Cambridge Companion to Lacan” (by Jean-Michel Rabate), Lacan had visited Dr. Jung in Kussnacht, Switzerland, near Zurich, sometime during 1954. (Jung died in 1961, twenty years before Lacan’s own death.) Here is the passage in “Ecrits” (as translated into English by Bruce Fink):

“Thus Freud’s comment to Jung (I have it from Jung’s own mouth)– when, having been invited by Clark University, they arrived in view of New York Harbor and of the famous statue illuminating the universe, ‘They don’t realize we’re bringing them the plague’– was turned against him as punishment for the hubris whose antiphrasis and darkness do not extinguish its turbid brilliance. To catch its author in her trap, Nemesis had merely to take him at his word. We would be justified in fearing that Nemesis added a first-class ticket home.” ["Ecrits: The First Complete Edition in English" by Jacques Lacan, translated by Bruce Fink, p. 336 (2006)]

The quote is what we lawyers would call hearsay. Do I believe that Freud could have said it? Yes! Do I believe that Jung would have made up the quote and fed it to Lacan? No! Do I believe that Lacan could have made up the quote and put it into Jung’s mouth? Yes– but, since Lacan used it publicly at least as early as November 7, 1955, and published it in 1956, two years after meeting Jung, and five years before Jung’s death, I think that it is very likely that Jung, in fact, did give the quote to Lacan, and that Freud, in fact, had said it, or something very similar, as the SS George Washington passed through the Verrazano Narrows, separating Brooklyn from Staten Island, just over a century ago now, when Drs. Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung and Sandor Ferenczi arrived in Upper New York Bay, en route to Clark University, in Worcester, Massachusetts, via New York City. As a joke posted on our bulletin board in law school once read: “Yes, it’s hearsay– but it’s damn good hearsay!”

(5) Elizabeth Taylor's conversion to Judaism (she had three Jewish husbands)
From: Monique Sulter <> Date: 25.09.2010 10:14 PM

Elisabeth Taylor did not have to convert. Her mother was jewish: Sarah Weisbrot.

Any doubts?

Reply (Peter M.):

The following webpages say she converted. Her mother was Sara Viola Warmbrodt.

 During her marriage to Fisher, Taylor converted to Reform Judaism (having been born into the Christian Science religion.) She remains Jewish to this day, having referred to herself as such several times. In her book Elizabeth Takes Off, Taylor writes, "It [conversion to Judaism] had absolutely nothing to do with my past marriage to Mike [Todd] or my upcoming marriage to Eddie Fisher, both of whom were Jewish. It was something I had wanted to do for a long time" (see [1]).

Taylor was born in Hampstead, a wealthy district of north-west London, the second child of Francis Lenn Taylor (1897–1968) and Sara Viola Warmbrodt (1895–1994), who were Americans residing in England.

Sara Sothern (August 21, 1895 – September 11, 1994) was an American stage actress.

She was born Sara Viola Warmbrodt in Arkansas City, Kansas, the daughter of Samuel Sylvester Warmbrodt (October 8, 1861 – January 6, 1948) and Elizabeth Ann Wilson (February 10, 1864 – February 7, 1932). Her paternal grandfather was from Switzerland.

What is Dame Elizabeth’s religion?

Although Elizabeth was raised a Christian Scientist, she converted to Judaism at Hollywood’s Temple Israel on March 27, 1959. Although she wanted to convert to the Jewish faith while Mike Todd was alive, her desire to do so reached a fever pitch after his tragic death. Elizabeth wrote: “Now, in my steady, gnawing grief for Mike, I felt a desperate need for a formalized religion. I had discovered that I had no way of expressing myself in prayer other than an almost wordless howl to God—’Oh, God, oh God, oh God.’ I wanted something more channeled, more profound, more satisfying.” Elizabeth said she had always felt a connection towards the Jewish faith. “I felt terribly sorry for the suffering of the Jews during the war. I was attracted to their heritage. I guess I identified with them as underdogs.” According to Elizabeth, she “studied for about nine months, went to the temple regularly and converted.” Elizabeth’s Hebrew name is Elisheba Rachel. Elizabeth has always been very proud of her adopted faith—finding great comfort and peace in her adopted religion.

(6) Alleged communist ties of Marilyn Monroe's psychoanalyst, Ralph Greenson

From: Eric Walberg <> Date: 25.09.2010 08:26 PM
Subject: re greenson

> Greenson's role as a listener of movie star's confessions, his communist ties have profound implications

> Once Marilyn Monroe became Greenson's
> patient, he became one of the most
> important Comintern operatives in America;

Where's the evidence that he was a commie? it's just assumed in an otherwise well-documented article. i'm so tired of this neo-mccarthyism. i couldn't find a reputable reference. wiki makes no mention.

Reply (Peter M.):

I searched Google for a few minutes without finding any solid evidence that he was a Communist. While I'm not going to spend a lot of time on it, I concede the odds are that there isn't any.

(7) Spencer Wells "A Few Men Did Most of the Mating" - cf Tribal societies

From: Tony Ryan <> Date: 07.10.2010 09:13 PM

> Spencer Wells on the Genetic record: a few men did most of the mating
> (p. 159)

> First Contact in the Amazon: "Kill all the men and marry all the women"

There is a prevailing belief that to be tribal is to conform to a specific model of social behaviour, and whether this view is held by juvenile readers of comics or PhD anthropologists, it is nonsense.

Let us compare two tribal peoples: Polynesians had a hierarchical society, which incorporated chiefs who made unilateral decisions for the tribe; and systems of slavery, cannibalism, and ritualised execution. Being hierarchical, distribution of wealth was uneven, with some living in abject poverty while others lived well. As in all hierarchical societies, there was torture and intimidation, and war was a regular occurrence.

Equally tribal Australian Aborigines had a non-hierarchical society in which all decisions were made through a process of saturation consensus, initiated by whichever person whose spirit originated from the place of consideration; obvious to all as such a place is each person's given name. With power spread thinly across the entire community, and material possession an alien concept, oppression was unheard of. All worked and all ate; although children and the very old were provided for. Aboriginal society certainly knew personal disputes, which could occasionally escalate into larger battles, but the central determinant of their society was the avoidance of conflict, in terms of nature, spirits, and of each other.

Other groups with similar cultures to Aborigines, were Africa's Kung, and north America's Inuit.

Clearly, to be tribal only means that the central value of society is extended family. The full spectrum of social constructs, ranging from harsh authoritarian, right through to purest democratic models of social organisation, might prevail.

In Polynesian, and in fact all hierarchical societies, it may well be possible that some men dominated the marriage system with multiple wives and concubines, but in flat power societies (Aboriginal, et al) polygamy was common only because male infant morbidity is higher than female, and as far as hunter-gatherers are concerned, fatal accidents occur much more with men than women.

But in Aboriginal society, although there are extremely severe marriage laws, liaisons and affairs were rife. And although this led to interesting physical features appearing across strange relationships, to suggest this donates progeny would be unthinkable in this culture. Hence the persistent belief by anthropologists that Aborigines were so primitive they did not even suspect conception being linked with intercourse.

Comment (Peter M.):

Aboriginal society has been called a "Gerontocracy". Old men married young women, and young men married old women. In Darwinian terms, it was probably a good idea. There were a lot of elopements to beat the system, but punishment was severe, viz death.

(8) FBI file links Kennedy to Monroe's death

Sydney Morning Herald

March 17, 2007

For four decades there have been rumours that Marilyn Monroe's death was not a simple suicide. Now a Los Angeles-based Australian writer and director, Philippe Mora, has uncovered an FBI document that throws up a chilling new scenario.

BOBBY KENNEDY'S affair with the screen idol Marilyn Monroe has been documented, but a secret FBI file suggests the late US attorney-general was aware of - and perhaps even a participant in - a plan "to induce" her suicide.

The detailed three-page report implicates the Hollywood actor Peter Lawford, Monroe's psychiatrist, staff and her publicist in the plot.

The allegations suggest the 36-year-old actress, who had a history of staging attention-seeking suicide attempts, was deliberately given the means to fake another suicide on August 4, 1962. But this time, it is suggested, she was allowed to die as she sought help.

The document, hidden among thousands of pages released under freedom-of-information laws last October, was received by the FBI on October 19, 1964 - two years after her death - and titled simply "ROBERT F KENNEDY".

It was compiled by an unnamed former special agent working for the then Democrat governor of California, Pat Brown, and forwarded to Washington by Curtis Lynum, then head of the San Francisco FBI. Despite a disclaimer that it could not be sourced or authenticated, it was considered important enough to immediately circulate to the FBI's five most senior officers, including director J. Edgar Hoover's right-hand man, Clyde Tolson.

The report was in effect buried for decades as a classified document, and even the released version contains censored sections. Never before mentioned despite thousands of articles, books and documentaries about her death, it details aspects of Kennedy's on-and-off affair with the movie star, including sex parties and a lesbian dalliance, as well as her emotional departure from 20th Century Fox and descent into depression.

Critically, it raises an alleged conspiracy, apparently overseen by Lawford, for Monroe to unwittingly commit suicide with the drug Seconal, a barbiturate used to treat insomnia and relieve anxiety. The document gives no precise reason why she would be killed but hints it may be linked to her threats to make public her affair with Kennedy, as other conspiracy theories have previously claimed. It states in part: "Peter Lawford, [censored words blacked out] knew from Marilyn's friends that she often made suicide attempts and that she was inclined to fake a suicide attempt in order to arouse sympathy.

"Lawford is reported as having made 'special arrangements' with Marilyn's psychiatrist, Dr Ralph Greenson, from Beverley Hills. The psychiatrist was treating Marilyn for emotional problems and getting her off the use of barbiturates. On her last visit to him he prescribed Seconal tablets and gave her a prescription for 60 of them, which was unusual in quantity especially since he saw her frequently. On the date of her death … her housekeeper put the bottle of pills on the night table. It is reported that the housekeeper and Marilyn's personal secretary and press agent, Pat Newcomb, were co-operating in the plan to induce suicide."

It goes on to say that on the same day, Kennedy had booked out of the Beverley Hills Hotel and flown to San Francisco where he booked into the St Charles Hotel, owned by a friend. "Robert Kennedy made a telephone call from St Charles Hotel, San Francisco, to Peter Lawford to find out if Marilyn was dead yet."

Lawford called and spoke to Monroe "then checked again later to make sure she did not answer". The document claims the housekeeper, Eunice Murray, who had been hired by the actress on the advice of Dr Greenson, then called the psychiatrist.

"Marilyn expected to have her stomach pumped out and get sympathy for her suicide attempt. The psychiatrist left word for Marilyn to take a drive in the fresh air but did not come to see her until after she was known to be dead."

Officially, the actress was found by Murray in the early hours of August 5, naked on her bed lying on top of her telephone. The others are now dead, too.

The FBI report says Kennedy had promised Monroe he would divorce his wife and marry her, but the actress eventually realised he had no intention of doing so. About this time, he had told her not to worry about 20th Century Fox cancelling her contract - "he would take care of everything". When nothing happened, she called him at work and they had "unpleasant words. She was reported to have threatened to make public their affair."

Hoover, keeper of America's secrets, was obsessed with the private life of celebrities, particularly those with leftist leanings. The files show the FBI tracked Monroe from the Cold War mid-1950s to her death in 1962, but particularly after she met and married the playwright Arthur Miller, who was being watched as a possible communist.

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